The Grit Blueprint

From Policy To Performance: Building A Stronger Window And Door Industry with John Crosby

• Grit Blueprint

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What if the most overlooked parts of your house are the biggest levers for comfort, safety, and long-term value? I sit down with John Crosby, president and CEO of the Window & Door Manufacturers Association (WDMA), to unpack how high-performance windows, doors, and skylights can shift from commodity to everyday upgrade, and what it will take to get there.

We trace the path from policy to performance, revealing why standards and model codes often decide market outcomes long before a product hits the shelf. John breaks down the real story on tariffs and pricing and how advocacy must balance public good with workable timelines. We examine the housing affordability crisis through a pragmatic lens: adding capacity and efficiency without sacrificing margins or jobs, and orchestrating a labor transition as veteran expertise retires. The takeaway is practical and urgent. Workforce development must move beyond slogans into hands-on pathways that prove modern manufacturing is safe, valuable, and future-forward.

We also get tactical about the tools leaders can control. AI and robotics can lift plant productivity and employee experience when paired with smart processes and clear metrics. A digital-first association can amplify member voices and turn data into decisions. And perhaps most importantly, the industry’s story needs a refresh: consumers don’t buy U-factors, they buy how a home feels. Direct-to-consumer education, values-based messaging, and brand experiences that connect benefits to daily life can unlock adoption at scale.

Topics we cover:
• Mission to accelerate adoption of high-performance windows, doors, and skylights across North America
• Standards and model codes as the real battleground, not just federal legislation
• Tariffs, pricing signals, and avoiding panic-driven decisions
• Housing affordability and scaling without crushing margins
• Workforce development, aging expertise, and practical on-ramps
• Robotics and AI to boost safety, quality, and throughput
• Digital strategy and non-dues revenue to strengthen advocacy
• Data and insights to guide leaders and align the market
• DTC demand, values-based storytelling, and consumer education
• Five-year vision: fenestration as a quality-of-life upgrade

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John Crosby:

This industry is in an existential moment.

Stefanie Couch:

It's hard to solve a problem you don't know you have even if someone else knows you have it.

John Crosby:

Our mission is to promote the adoption of high-performance windows, doors, and skylights in all kinds of projects across uh North America. We need to find a way to focus on workforce development and then a hands-on understanding of just how cool it can be to be in this industry. The complexity is fragile as much as it's difficult to comprehend.

Stefanie Couch:

Melding that together is sort of a bridge, and you seem like you're quite the bridge.

John Crosby:

If we can move in the direction of educating consumers about what it means to have a quality experience in your home through windows and doors and skylights, I think we're going to change the perception of what it means to own a home.

Stefanie Couch:

Welcome to the Grit Blueprint Podcast, the playbook for building unmistakable brands that grow, lead, and last in the built world. I'm Stephanie Couch, the founder of Grit Blueprint. And I'm a lifelong building industry insider. I was raised here, built my career here, and now my team and I help others win here. The truth is, you can be the best option in your space and still lose to someone else who simply shows up better and more consistently. Each week on the Grit Blueprint, I'm going to show you how to stand out, earn trust, and turn your brand into a competitive advantage that lasts. If you're ready to be seen, known, chosen, and become unmistakable, you're in the right place. Let's get started. Thank you for joining me on this episode of the Grit Blueprint Podcast. I am your host, Stephanie Couch, and I am here today, live in Boston, with my friend John Crosby from WDMA. You are the president and CEO of the Window and Door Manufacturing Association. Welcome to the show.

John Crosby:

Thank you. I'm happy to be here. And when you say it that way, I went, wow, I really am the president and CEO of the Window and Door Manufacturing Association.

Stefanie Couch:

It's always better coming from someone else. It is. I love that. Well, we just wrapped up a big two days for you and your team and the association. We're here at the executive management conference, and we had a day and a half of content and great conversation with the people who are really leading our industry, which is exciting to be around because there's so many different companies, so many different leaders that I hadn't gotten the chance to meet. How are you feeling right now?

John Crosby:

I am more energized than when I showed up. That's awesome. I had butterflies when I showed up because you know you come in first time with the executives in this industry in the room, and you don't want to screw up. First impression will last. But we were prepared. Um I helped build the content for the conference. I actually took some time to ask the CEOs what they wanted and expected from the event. Unfortunately, I got one response.

Stefanie Couch:

Yeah.

John Crosby:

But they're busy. It didn't matter. My instincts were correct about what they need to hear. I have a passion for this industry, and it is not because I've been in it for a long time. It's because of the people. The people I've gotten to know in this industry are just good, smart people who know how to make good product.

Stefanie Couch:

It's an exciting time to be in the industry too, because I think there's a lot of uh challenges and a lot of opportunities for us to do something different. So I want to talk a little bit about you and your background. You just started in this role about a year ago, but you've been in the industry a long time, like you said, but you kind of had a different path than a lot of people I've talked to. You came through the hill, you were just a bill in the hill. That's true. And you then worked through uh several different associations. You've worked with a lot of different great companies. So tell me a little bit about John and your story of how you got to where you are.

John Crosby:

Okay. So I first of all, I am steeped and rooted in the policy realm, uh, a government degree from the College of William and Mary. I was inspired by Thomas Jefferson because he was one of the first alums of the college. But I also had been to Washington, D.C. as a child, and this is where I want to live. I want to be involved in what happens in this town. Fast forward, uh, I get that policy experience, and I begin lobbying. Um, and I was lobbying for some really arcane organizations I won't even get into, but the reality is what I learned was I'm more of a communicator than a policy wonk. I get policy. I can interpret it, I can analyze it, but talking about it and helping everyone else understand it because it can be confusing, that's where my vibe was. And so I actually got out of lobbying and started working in communications and then by extension marketing in associations, but related to the policy realm. The conversion into the construction industry was a little bit happenstance. So Hanleywood Media had uh signed a strategic partnership with the American Institute of Architects, and Frank Anton, their longtime CEO at the time, said to me, We don't know a damn thing about associations, and we definitely don't know much about architects. And I said, I'm here to help. I don't know architects really well either, but I can help on the association side. And I learned so much from, I'd say it, I have a master's degree from Hanleywood University because I got to know the construction industry in a way that I never would have been able to. Um so that's how I got into it. My path is very much rooted in one thing. Uh I associations tend to be quasi-government agencies. People are not interested in talking about profit, they're interested in talking about mission. And I've always tilted against that windmill and told everyone no money, no mission. So I moved out of communications and got into business development because I saw that there was a grave need to lead in these organizations where I worked on generat revenue that was mission focused. Unfortunately, because the way associations are, I also moved on three times and went to the corporate world because I felt like I needed to connect with the Borg on that. You know, I needed to be in an environment where it's nope, profit is the motive here. Okay, we are here to make money. And I learned those lessons and then went back to associations because of it. Um, so I it is a crooked stick approach, but that I will tell you, it's defined who I am, and it's why I can sit in the room with those CEOs like we did today and talk business. I can talk politics, I can talk policy, and in the end, make sure they know that they're gonna have a profitable organization when it's all said and done.

Stefanie Couch:

Yeah, today was actually really interesting. I was sitting right behind you and I got to watch some of the things that were being talked about and happening, and you are quite the communicator, but I liked the balance of not too politically, you know, the the lobbyist idea that I've been in Washington, I don't understand the reality of what's happening in the in the rest of the lower or the other 50 states, I guess since Washington, DC is not a state. But at the end of the day, you get that, and so you can balance it. And I think people, I saw a lot of respect for that. And uh it's it's fun to watch that happen when someone has the balance. I I kind of feel the same way. Like I understand the industry, but I'm wildly wildly different than the rest of the industry, and so melding that together is sort of a bridge, and you seem like you're quite the bridge.

John Crosby:

I appreciate that. I didn't even think of it that way, and uh it starts from I I am a pleaser by nature. Um, it's something I have to watch out for because you can make mistakes and you know suffer mortal wounds from it. But my first intention in a in a position like this is I have a mission to serve and an industry to serve, and I can't do that unless I have their trust and their respect. And I the only way I'm gonna get those is to earn it. So you're right. I mean, the reputation of a lobbyist typically is I know better than you. And you just need to fall in line behind me and I'll get you where you need to go. Sure. Unfortunately, there are too many industries that are or companies that are just too dumb enough to realize they're spending a lot of money on hired guns and maybe get a result, but the short, it's a pyrrhic victory more often than not. So I it's it's always going to be intentional and with them having the opportunity to tell me what I should be doing rather than the other way around.

Stefanie Couch:

Well, I do want to talk a little bit about advocacy as a greater topic because I think, in my perception from my 25, 30 years in the industry actively, I don't think about that as much because I'm not on the manufacturing side. I was on the distribution side and the dealer side, and I know that that's super important. But for someone like me that maybe doesn't have a huge level of experience with that, what is the Window and Door Manufacturing Association's mission? Number one. And then number two, how are you in 2025? What are the things you're thinking about the most? And how are you impacting those things the most or hoping to at least?

John Crosby:

Okay, so our mission is to promote the adoption of high-performance windows, doors, and skylights uh at in all kinds of projects across uh North America. It's not just the United States, it is Canada as well. That's a loaded statement. There's a lot underneath that. Um, but when it's all said and done, everything we're supposed to be fighting for is meant to push uh better into the marketplace. And we all know this, that doesn't happen all the time. So uh our message, our uh any of our initiatives, any of our uh lobbying work, but also codes and standards work is pushed in the direction of not unreasonable advancement of adoption, but reasonable cost versus value-based or cost versus impact-based adoption of those products. I mentioned to the CEOs today about over-commoditization. And it a lot of that has to do with the fact that we've been pushed in the direction of offering a variety of product qualities and um it's not just types, it's qualities. And I think that has also damaged our ability to advance high performance window-door and skylight adoption. So, from an advocacy standpoint, that word doesn't just mean legislation. It is rooted all the way down to the standards level, which means, yes, we do develop some of our own standards, but we are advocating for better in uh you know NFPA standards and ASHRAY standards, anything that's going to affect our member companies' products. And again, not to just get our way, but to make sure it's going to leverage the highest adoption of the best product available. You extend that into building codes, and we're not an advocate at the state level with codes officials. We we kind of stop at the water's edge on that. But on model code development, we are right in it with everybody else. Uh our my team is amazing on that front. They've forgotten more than I will ever know on code, but it's a huge part of it that even the executives in in our membership don't always process. They pay attention to the governmental, regulatory, and legislative stuff because it's big and it's it could have cross-cutting impact. Right. That's where we've typically been at the federal level, but the shift in politics in this country in the past year has shown the way for, in particular, blue states, but a lot of purple states to get more aggressive on policymaking in areas where it's not gonna get done in uh in DC.

Stefanie Couch:

Yeah.

John Crosby:

So we're now having, we're forced to have to pivot that way and think about playing whack-a-mole against 50 states.

Stefanie Couch:

Yeah, the states are getting really important. And also uh every state, if you think about from a manufacturing perspective, what these companies are gonna have to do to service all 50 states when all 50 states have different, it's like 50 people that want something on a menu that's not on the menu, and the chef's got to figure out how to cook it.

John Crosby:

Exactly right.

Stefanie Couch:

It's uh, and you hope you have the right ingredients.

John Crosby:

Yeah, it's not an assembly line like McDonald's where every burger is gonna look and technically taste the same. Uh they are somewhat copycat, you know, in the in their behaviors on policy, but we've seen it this year with PFOS and PFOS restrictions at the state level. Um, states you would think would be completely identical in their politics with very different policy coming out of their rulemaking processes. So we have to read every single proposed rulemaking and find the commonalities and the distinctions, and then map that against, okay, exactly what is it that the members keep saying that they want out of this? And by the way, what they really want is time. They're not inclined to say, let's fight against banning PFOS. That's a moral issue. It's can we do this on a timeline that's reasonable and achievable?

Stefanie Couch:

Yeah.

John Crosby:

I would love for us to be focusing more on a campaign around, you know, reviving the popularity of low-e glass because it really is, it remains a game changer that most Americans have no clue about. I would love to be getting into that conversation at the um the regulatory level or with codes officials instead of playing defense on PFOS. It just common sense regulation will be fine for everyone. We just gotta figure out the pathway to get there.

Stefanie Couch:

It's gonna be an interesting year with all that going down. I I realized a little bit of it, but it's uh way deeper than I even quite realized. So it's gonna be a really interesting year. You're gonna be very busy, John.

John Crosby:

It is going to be very busy, and my team is already lean and mean. Um, the we punch above our weight, but we punch above our weight because the members get involved, and that's incredibly valuable for us. It's that's you can't buy that kind of engagement, and you also can't win the way we can win with policymakers without the voice of the members.

Stefanie Couch:

As a whole in the macro of the window and door industry, what do you hear? And not just from necessarily the members or people today, but what do you hear that are the things that are keeping people up at night besides all these regulations of the states? We already know that. What what other things are plaguing our industry that you're either tackling or at least talking about?

John Crosby:

So tariffs are absolutely on everyone's mind. Uh I I have been balancing my reaction and response on tariffs through the past six months, mainly because you know the initial threat of it was okay, we're gonna see major price increases across the the entire industry. And we we haven't seen that. And I I actually cautioned the board on it from the beginning, saying, your company may very well decide to do that. What I'm worried about is across the board, the industry has gone in that direction. And is it an overreaction? And as we've learned, the panic that occurred on Liberation Day as it was described April 2nd, 2025.

Stefanie Couch:

That's my birthday, by the way.

John Crosby:

No way. Okay, okay, now I know next year on Liberation Day, we gotta wish Stephanie.

Stefanie Couch:

I was literally liberated. You were.

John Crosby:

Oh my gosh. So no tariff involved. No, no tariffs. Uh let's get back to that. Um, no, we need no tariffs. Um, no, I there was a lot of panic amongst uh in particular the people in our leadership who are not, you know, boots on the ground talking to distributors and dealers and and builders and architects. I got a sense that the people who actually were doing that really had a different feel for things. And as things, as time passed, it was it's become clear, yes, at some point, uh price increases are inevitable. Inflation is just going to affect us. So I I've taken the approach of I will do everything I can to find to represent, to have conversations, put the member in front to have that dialogue, but ultimately also serve as a bit of a therapist back to the industry to say, calm down. This is not, we're not in an existential moment yet. So tariffs is is chief among those topics. I would say the other part of this, the housing affordability crisis in this country is massive, and the government is not going to solve this problem on its own. I kind of alluded to that in our executive session earlier. Um anything government tends to do warps and distorts markets. Um, and it typically drives up demand. I've had a lot of conversations inside the membership about what we can do, or how should we coal as forces within the industry, especially on the product side, to have the conversation about what it takes to get a million houses built, or maybe it's three million houses built that are affordable, um, that don't damage margins in a way that you know manufacturers or builders are gonna suffer. Um, because let's face it, you could say we're gonna go out and do it and we're gonna cut the price by 30%. That's most assuredly going to affect employment across the entire sector. I I've heard one member at our legislative conference say this is akin to uh the mobilization of America after Pearl Harbor. Can we mobilize that way?

Stefanie Couch:

Yeah.

John Crosby:

Can we say we're gonna redeploy factories across this country in order to get more product built so we can get homes built and put some relief into the market on price? That's how bad this is right now.

Stefanie Couch:

Um one thing that I was gonna ask you because it is quite the juxtaposition. So you're talking about the mission and and uh being high performance and high quality and all those things, which I think are great. Those also aren't usually necessarily the most affordable things. That's correct. How do we balance affordability with quality or excellence and also, like you said, make it to where it's a sustainable thing for the macro and the industry to continue for years to come? I mean, it's a very hard question. And then the labor market just continues to get tougher, and there's other things happening around in the government that could make that you know harder. It's a very complicated situation.

John Crosby:

It's incredibly complicated, and pulling any one string could pull the whole thing apart. So the complexity is fragile as much as it's difficult to comprehend. I I I I will say this I the the the CEOs in the room today, I I didn't honor them enough because they are dealing with an industry that this isn't a nascent industry, this isn't one looking for 30, 40 percent margins. They are holding things together and they're doing it because it's the right thing to do. They want to employ people that you know they want to get stuff done, and they obviously want to maintain profitability. Having said that, this industry is in a it's an existential moment. Um, the fact that labor construction labor, uh, the crisis has persisted for this has been what, eight, ten years now? So it was pre-COVID we were dealing with this. You know, I think back then McKinsey was suggesting that automation was gonna solve all everyone's problems, and look where we are today.

Stefanie Couch:

Yeah.

John Crosby:

So I really do think, unfortunately, we're gonna have to see some economic pain in order for there to be a realignment of forces that will solve the challenges we've got. And that's unfortunate. But human nature is such that sometimes you've got to go through pain before you're gonna get back to where you need to be.

Stefanie Couch:

Yeah, things are always tougher than we want it to be, it seems. I I tend to think a lot about the next generation. That makes this even harder because when you walk through these facilities and these plants, the people that you see that are running the industry, even in the Salesforce and the distribution part of the channel, not if you're not in the manufacturing plant, these people are 50, 60, 70. They've been there 20, 30, 40 years. They are the ones with the knowledge, they're the people that you go to when something's wrong. And those people are going to be retiring. And that scares me a lot.

John Crosby:

Yeah.

Stefanie Couch:

And I haven't quite decided if there is a solution exactly. But I do think thinking about how people will learn in the next generation and how to try to get them to that point to where they feel comfortable to even do those jobs. Maybe they're not going to be as good as 20 years of experience. But how do we even get them to be able to function in that capacity? What are your thoughts on that? How do I mean what's one thing we could do that might help us even not solve it, but get towards a solution that could help?

John Crosby:

First and foremost, the middle class of this country needs to be revived. Um, we have a we have a social and cultural malaise in our in our population that's centered on uh either starvation or absolute thriving. And and and the middle class is it's been eviscerated. And we got to get back to actually helping people be comfortable with a middle class way of life because it can be healthy and it can be you can feel prosperous um without you know putting yourself into massive amounts of debt and being smart about you know having family and all that stuff. I think that's fundamental to what the country needs to accomplish. For our industry, I really and I feel strongly that we need to find a way to focus on workforce development in a way that is not, you know, hey, let's conduct some massive ad campaigns and show, you know, high schoolers that it's really cool to get into you know the trades and uh in construction in particular. What we need is actual inspiration and then hands-on understanding of just how cool it can be to be in this industry. Yeah. Um, that's a that's a tough thing for us to do. The federal government has historically taken up that problem every 10 to 15 years. And it has been far too long since they did it. And if we could put federal resources into it in a way that's going to be meaningful at the local level, it'll help. But immigration's got to get solved too, because immigration will actually help to feed the middle class big time here.

Stefanie Couch:

I do think that AI coming in is going to wipe out a lot of those uh mid-tier, entry-tier jobs that have been so easy for people to go out of college or out of high school into that weren't uh more manufacturing or any type of construction industry-related jobs. I believe that this AI wave is going to level playing fields in a lot of ways. And I think those jobs will become more valuable to the next generation because they are safer. You know, you said people thought McKenzie thought that robotics is going to solve all the problems. Even if you have automation and robotics and automation can help, there's a lot of things that a human still has to do in these plants. There's a lot of things on a job site that I don't by the time you automate it, you could have done it seven times with a human. So are we really saving anything or are we just doing this to prove a point that we could do it? Um, you know, you think yes, a robot can turn a screw on the top of a house or something like that. But by the time you get it there and get it positioned and get, I mean, is it really worth it? Just walk up the ladder and turn the screw. And so I think about that a lot because I do actually think that the very thing that will help us be more technologically advanced may drive that value back towards it. I think uh about one of the great examples is with anesthesiologists and the people that read radiology, um, both of those things, but especially in radiology, about 2016, there was a big person that said, stop training radiologists because they're going to be obsolete with AI. Well, what actually happened was that was true. They, they, the AI advanced crazy amounts. But last year, 4% more people were needed in radiology than before. And the reason is because of that technology being cheaper, easier, and so much more efficient, they actually are doing more scans than they've ever done before because now that doctors that might have sent one out of 10 people for scan is sending 10 out of 10 because they can see more, you know, with the AI. So it has had the reverse effect of what we thought it would have. And I wonder how many other times is that gonna happen with especially our industry where we think AI is gonna do something and it does it, but then the effect is different than what we thought it would be.

John Crosby:

Well, and that that is how innovation occurs. Uh, there's experimentation and you know, creativity applied to a problem. And you know, I think it the same thing's gonna happen with AI in this industry. It's it's gonna be accidental discoveries from attempting to accomplish something everyone thinks they ought to be doing now. But to your point about AI, all it's gonna take is one of these companies to step in and say, we're going that way and we're going hard, and it will be the tipping point.

Stefanie Couch:

Yeah.

John Crosby:

And it's going to dramatically change how the entire industry approaches uh not just productivity, but actually growing the business in a way that demonstrates value to shareholders or owners and um and and also to employees. To your point, you can create a better work experience for people simply by leveraging the technology that AI uh provides. I I would say robotics is still a thing on the manufacturing side. Absolutely. The investment there needs to grow. And a good example is Cardinal Glass. They have invested to the hilt in their own proprietary technology. They're putting investments in where arguably they don't have to, and they're doing it because they they want to. Yeah. Their customers are inspired by that and don't even need to invest in developing proprietary technology. So we're actually trying to figure out a way to help the entire industry understand there's a smarter way to operate while retaining your workforce and giving them opportunities to do more strategic work or more impactful work while robotics is taking care of the heavy lifting. So I think there is a role to play for WDMA on that front. Um I think it's gonna depend on whether there's consensus on that. Sure. We'll see.

Stefanie Couch:

As you look at the next six to 12 months, now you're one year in, and now you're heading into year two for you. What excites you the most about what you're doing with the industry and the people and all those things at WDMA?

John Crosby:

Becoming a more digitally oriented organization is I'm I'm energized that this is a moment where I could land and say we need to go that way really fast. And there's no argument about it. Everyone kind of gets it that we need to do that to increase engagement with members. We need to do it to project our advocacy messages, to draw more members into the fold, and to grow what we call non-dues revenue. Um, it's crucial because the last thing I ever want to do is raise dues. I think that's just for regressive action. On the digital side, that really energized me. It is not the first thing I thought going in, but now after a year, and and truly having some debates with members of our board about the viability of it and and the reasoning for it, that's number one on the list. But the other is data and insights. Um, I I had a conversation, I'm gonna give all credit to Chris Galvin with Anderson. I sat down with him at IBS this past February, and I was bold enough to say to him, Chris, I really do think we need to figure out how we can orient WDMA to serve the industry better through data collection and analysis. And his eyes lit up. And we talked about it for an hour. And at the end, I said, truly, given the structure of your company, it's not publicly traded or anything like that. I was concerned you were gonna say that's a bad idea or we may have to push back on that. No. He sees the future for this industry and says, if we don't start doing things like that, we're gonna put ourselves, all of us, at a competitive disadvantage. Right. So I we're not moving at lightning speed on data collection and analysis, but we are moving purposefully in that direction. The hope and belief is that by the end of the first quarter, we will have conducted, it's it's essentially a census of the industry, an economic impact study. Um, I call that the Trojan horse of data collection because it you need it for advocacy work, but the intel you gather from that is massive. And I I can't wait. I'm gonna get phone calls from all these research organizations asking us to sell them the data, and I'm not gonna do it because that's not the thing you do.

Stefanie Couch:

Um, I'm so excited about that because there isn't really anything like that. I mean, there's some things out there in different organizations that have touched that, but nothing around that. I hope you do some um conversations about brand and some of the things that I like to talk about because I would love to see some information on that and how people view that. And going towards that conversation, you and I have talked a lot in our last six months of knowing. Other about the importance of for our industry being something that you know and you're seeing, and what are your thoughts on that? How important is the next generation of our industry, the leaders that are here, they're not going to be able to stand on reputation alone. They have for a long time. And that is how the market moved, and that's how things were done, and it's not anymore. What are your thoughts on that and the importance of shifting our perspective there?

John Crosby:

Well, first, and I think this came about in the in the presentation you gave today. I I think the direct-to-consumer model is going to evolve rapidly within our sector. And I think that is a great thing. Um, I mentioned overcommoditization earlier. Consumers are not overcommodizing our product. It's the builder, it's to some extent the architect, the distributor. If we can move in the direction of educating consumers about what it means to have a quality experience in your home through windows and doors and skylights, I think we're going to change the perception of what it means to own a home. There are just so many facets to the equation that we can bring up. And I'm not even talking about technology advancements that no one's willing to take the risks on, or if they are, it's in their RD programs and they scrap them. That's the part where I've I've actually said to every CEO in individual conversations, you know, I want to see when one of our member companies is pushing out that product that has electrochromatic shading and it has a mobile app connected to all of the windows so you can actually manually manipulate them, open and close them. You know, turn your windows and doors into applications so that everyone wants them.

Stefanie Couch:

Yeah.

John Crosby:

That's the vision I have for the future. For the next six months, that is not in the cards. But we do want to be able to push them in that direction because if they're if they're considering a better state, they're going to aim for it. But first is I think getting past the the intermediators that are involved. That's what's happened in other sectors.

Stefanie Couch:

Well, and from my perspective, being in that channel for so long, you go towards the easy route or what you know. And then the distributors and the dealers and the even contractors, like you said, they have favorites because of their comfortability with them. Like you might see a better product and you might know it's better, and you know that thing is something you should learn about, but you already know this thing is proven. And so it's how do you consider the stories and the values of what they actually care about and then build something around that that catches the attention enough to make them want to know more or to make them want to remember it. And I don't think we do a great job as an industry of that. We think so much about the technical and the features and benefits, that is not how people buy. And so if we can start to think about how actually people buy, which is more, way more emotional than logical, and we can tap into that, then they start to care about once you get down the line, the features and the benefits. But it can't be what we lead with, and it always has been.

John Crosby:

That's a fact. You know, our keynote today focused on values alignment with customers. And if we extrapolate to the end user of a building, of a home, or whatever structure, and consider what their experience is like and what their values are as a part of being in that structure, it's pretty easy to connect the dots to why better performing products from our industry can be preferred and outright purchase. There is a logical flow to that argument. Yeah. Um that's that's a part of marketing that I think in this industry everyone thinks is way too soft, and it's not. It's very direct and impactful to the message that a consumer would want to hear.

Stefanie Couch:

Well, I'll bring uh the unsoftest person I've ever read about into the story. Whether you love him or hate him, Elon Musk is not someone I would consider to be soft. He literally uses the word hardcore all the time. That's what he calls himself. But he actually says that showmanship is salesmanship, and he talks about the power of stories and connecting, and you have to make people pay attention. Steve Jobs was the same way. They're both ruthless founders. They they were not known for being real empathetic. But at the end of the day, if they know that and they understand that, then I would believe that we all could take a cue from that of there's something here. And even Warren Buffett talks about storytelling. And so I think we have to figure out a way to do that.

John Crosby:

And there's a there's a connective tissue to that and the challenge that we have. And it Steve Jobs said it. I'm not interested in understanding what my customer wants. I want to tell them what they want. I want to produce and anticipate what they are going to need. Yes. The same can be applied to our industry. What is what is the end user gonna need or want in the future that they don't even realize now?

Stefanie Couch:

It's hard to solve a problem you don't know you have, even if someone else knows you have it.

John Crosby:

That's correct. But once you can see a desired end state, you want more of it than anybody else. And I do believe if we can adopt more of an uh an innovative culture and honestly adopt some risk taking in the process, I I think you could see some transformations happen in this industry. Unfortunately, it's probably going to lead to more consolidation, but uh it is what it is. We can't stop that.

Stefanie Couch:

Inevitability. I don't I don't see how you get around that with the way that the market and all the the finances out there are working. I'm just don't and manufacturing is hard and it's a little easier with scale. And the bigger the scale gets, the easier it gets. The bigger the stick, the easier it is to swing, I guess. Yep. So I have one last question for you. Sure. If we are here in five years and we're talking about you and WDMA, um hopeful hopefully by then you have a pink hat to go with your pink jacket. But if we're talking about what's happened, what do you hope is true and what do you want to be true for you and for WDMA in five years?

John Crosby:

I hope that what we are seeing is um is actually an evolution is taking place in the the mind of the average American about the importance of I'm gonna use the word fenestration, but I'm only because we're all in the industry. The importance of fenestration for a lot of reasons. For performance, sure, but it's so boring to talk about energy performance. It's how does that window perform to improve your quality of life and the experience of your home? Um, I I hope that we have evolved to the point where the average American sees that and says, wow, all this time I didn't even realize that. And now I have increased value about my own home because of it. Um so I would like to think in five years we've achieved that. We've gotten to middle America with the message that those things in your house that you didn't have a choice over can be changed and you can get something you'll be proud of. So that's what I hope for. The other question was What about for you personally? Me personally. Well, first of all, I do hope I'm still here. Um, I I have no intentions of, you know, a lot of people in the association space will work three years and then find the next gig. I took this job because knowing it was gonna need up a lot more of my personal time, um, I took it because I could sense that I had a verve for the industry and the people. And I want to be at this conference in five years, having that that session that ended today, I want it to be an absolutely like a hoot nanny. People butting heads and having debates and arguing things, and in the end, but it being about things that matter and will shape the future of the industry for years to come, because I have facilitated the ground for everyone to do that in a way that they're still friendly competitors and they're collegial with one another and treat each other like family. That's we get we get more of with the same stable foundation we've got.

Stefanie Couch:

Well, I think that you are the bridge to make that happen, and I'm excited, and I hope we are here together in five years talking about it and doing a lot of great things for the industry that we both love and serve hopefully for a long time.

John Crosby:

Let's put it down. Let's do it. We will be there. All right.

Stefanie Couch:

Well, thank you for joining me on the Grit Blueprint Podcast, and we will see you on the next episode. Thank you for listening to the Grit Blueprint podcast. If this episode helped you think a little differently about how to show up, share it with someone in your building world who needs it. If you're ready to turn visibility into growth, then head to gritblueprint.com to learn more and book a call to talk to us about your growth strategy. Until next time, stay unmistakable.

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Stefanie Couch

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